Since Tom Foote has opened this topic on Tweeters, I'll have to take a
page from Dan Victor's book and forward a discussion from Birdchat that I
started this morning. As you'll see, there's some good information, and
considerable skepticism, in this thread.

Burt Guttman guttmanb at elwha.evergreen.edu
The Evergreen State College Voice: 360-866-6000, x. 6755
Olympia, WA 98505 FAX: 360-866-6794

Forwarded messages:
______________________________

>From guttmanb at ELWHA.EVERGREEN.EDU Sun Apr 9 10:57:38 1995
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 07:27:23 -0700
From: Burton Guttman <guttmanb at ELWHA.EVERGREEN.EDU>
Reply to: "National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line)"
<BIRDCHAT at listserv.Arizona.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list BIRDCHAT <BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Black Vultures and livestock

Our local paper today printed the following story, which surprised me very
much. Some of my references do say that Black Vultures are more likely
than other vultures to take live prey, including small mammals such as
skunks, and even an occasional sheep or calf; they mention Black Vultures
watching birthing cows or sheep to get the afterbirth or a stillborn calf
or lamb or occasionally a newborn live animal. But this story implies
that the birds are ganging up, in huge numbers, on older animals.

The story raises some questions for me. (1) Do any Virginia birders
have first-hand information about this situation? The story has a
certain anti-environmental fishiness to it, and I wonder how accurate it
is. (2) Assuming it's true, what food supply could be supporting such
large numbers of vultures? Or has the population temporarily overshot
the carrying capacity of the environment? As humans civilize more land,
there ought to be less natural food for the vultures, offset somewhat by
increased roadkills along more miles of highway. So how has the vulture
population gotten to be so large? (3) Is this a matter of a new culture
developing among Black Vultures? Have they started to learn that
attacking livestock is an easy way to get food, so this behavior is now
becoming the norm for this species? Finally, not a question but a
concern: This is exactly the kind of situation that can feed an anti-
environmental backlash and fuel legislation protecting landowners or
giving them special powers to kill birds.

Well, here's the article:
-------------------------
Plague of vultures feeds on Virginia farm animals
- Killer birds: One of the largest flocks of vultures ever seen east of
the Mississippi is destroying livestock
- The Washington Post

RADFORD, Va.-- From the cab of his two-tone Ford pickup, Richard Frizzell
braces for yet another attack as he spots the tiny black dots circling in
the sky just over the ridge at the end of his farm.

Within minutes, his enemy appears: a pack of black vultures, wings lock
in a V, looking for a breakfast of live calves.

"I've counted about 100 going at a cow," said Frizzell, who has had 10
calves killed this year the by bald-headed, flesh-eating birds. "It's
really quite scary."

Frizzell and other farmers within a 25-mile radius are plagued by what
wildlife officials are calling one of the largest flocks of vultures ever
seen east of the Mississippi River. Between 1,500 and 3,000 of the
migratory birds nest in a thicket at the nearby Radford Army Ammunition
Plant and spend their days flying over farms and preying on animals.

Farmers here estimate the vultures, commonly known as buzzards, have
killed more than 90 animals in the last three months, mostly calves and
sheep.

"I'd love to be able to shoot every buzzard I see," Frizzell said. "But
you can't do that."

Indeed, black vultures, like most migratory birds, are federally
protected by an international treaty signed in 1936. Shooting one can
bring a fine of up to $5,000 and six months in jail.

So farmers have taken to driving their tractors at full speed at
vultures closing in on cattle. Others have set off fireworks, thrown
rocks at the birds and fired shotguns filled with blanks.

"Those things will get them off your land, but they'll just go over to
your neighbor's farm and kill stuff there," said Bill McDonald, who has a
farm just outside Blacksburg. "We've got our hands tied."
---------------

Burt Guttman guttmanb at elwha.evergreen.edu
The Evergreen State College Voice: 360-866-6000, x. 6755
Olympia, WA 98505 FAX: 360-866-6794

>From mpatters at EDNET1.OSL.OR.GOV Sun Apr 9 10:57:50 1995
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 08:13:11 -0700
From: Mike Patterson <mpatters at EDNET1.OSL.OR.GOV>
Reply to: "National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line)"
<BIRDCHAT at listserv.Arizona.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list BIRDCHAT <BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black Vultures and livestock

>The story raises some questions for me. (1) Do any Virginia birders
>have first-hand information about this situation? The story has a
>certain anti-environmental fishiness to it, and I wonder how accurate it
>is. (2) Assuming it's true, what food supply could be supporting such
>large numbers of vultures? Or has the population temporarily overshot
>the carrying capacity of the environment? As humans civilize more land,
>there ought to be less natural food for the vultures, offset somewhat by
>increased roadkills along more miles of highway. So how has the vulture
>population gotten to be so large? (3) Is this a matter of a new culture
>developing among Black Vultures? Have they started to learn that
>attacking livestock is an easy way to get food, so this behavior is now
>becoming the norm for this species? Finally, not a question but a
>concern: This is exactly the kind of situation that can feed an anti-
>environmental backlash and fuel legislation protecting landowners or
>giving them special powers to kill birds.

I can only speak on this issue relative to Bald Eagles and sheep ranchers
in the Willamette Valley of Oregon, though I suspect the same basic issues
could be applied to vultures in Virginia, or fish eating birds and fish
production.

I have a friend who is a sheep rancher and birder (it happens). According
to his observations which I trust. Eagles eat sheep. I've actually seen
eagles sitting on dead carcasses. They are attracted during the lambing
season which in Oregon is January through March. This coincides with the
peak concentrations of non-resident migrants from further north.

Rather than shoot the eagles my friend has adopted the practice of not
removing the dead carcasses, a pratcice most farmers following and may well
be law in some states. Eagles do not kill new lambs if there are dead ones
around. He says he loses far fewer lambs by leaving the stillborn and
dying adults for the scavengers. In fact he moves them to parts of his
property away from his lambing operations.

I'm guessing that vultures and eagles have been following the herds for
1000's of years. We humans have replaced wild herds with domestic ones.
We are told by the EPA to bury the dead ones or look to predators to
explain a bad year. It just couldn't be possible that our practices are
at fault so we shoot the seals and cormorants in the fisheries, the coyotes,
wolves, bears, eagles and vultures. An interesting thought experiment:
who gets the blame for crop failure if we ever do eradicate all the
varmits?

********************************
* Mike Patterson, Astoria, OR * "Time flies like an arrow;
* mpatters at ednet1.osl.or.gov * fruit flies like a banana."
******************************** - Groucho Marx

>From meg5 at EMAIL.PSU.EDU Sun Apr 9 10:58:00 1995
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 11:28:46 -0500
From: Gregory <meg5 at EMAIL.PSU.EDU>
Reply to: "National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line)"
<BIRDCHAT at listserv.Arizona.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list BIRDCHAT <BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black Vultures and livestock

In message Sun, 9 Apr 1995 07:27:23 -0700,
Burton Guttman <guttmanb at ELWHA.EVERGREEN.EDU> writes:

> Our local paper today printed the following story, which surprised me very
> much. Some of my references do say that Black Vultures are more likely
> than other vultures to take live prey, including small mammals such as
> skunks, and even an occasional sheep or calf; they mention Black Vultures
> watching birthing cows or sheep to get the afterbirth or a stillborn calf
> or lamb or occasionally a newborn live animal. But this story implies
> that the birds are ganging up, in huge numbers, on older animals.
>
> The story raises some questions for me. (1) Do any Virginia birders
> have first-hand information about this situation? The story has a
> certain anti-environmental fishiness to it, and I wonder how accurate it
> is. (2) Assuming it's true, what food supply could be supporting such
> large numbers of vultures? Or has the population temporarily overshot
> the carrying capacity of the environment? As humans civilize more land,
> there ought to be less natural food for the vultures, offset somewhat by
> increased roadkills along more miles of highway. So how has the vulture
> population gotten to be so large? (3) Is this a matter of a new culture
> developing among Black Vultures? Have they started to learn that
> attacking livestock is an easy way to get food, so this behavior is now
> becoming the norm for this species? Finally, not a question but a
> concern: This is exactly the kind of situation that can feed an anti-
> environmental backlash and fuel legislation protecting landowners or
> giving them special powers to kill birds.
>
> Well, here's the article:
> -------------------------
> Plague of vultures feeds on Virginia farm animals
> - Killer birds: One of the largest flocks of vultures ever seen east of
> the Mississippi is destroying livestock
> - The Washington Post
>
> RADFORD, Va.-- From the cab of his two-tone Ford pickup, Richard Frizzell
> braces for yet another attack as he spots the tiny black dots circling in
> the sky just over the ridge at the end of his farm.
(rest deleted)
Notice that there is no comment included in this article from a wildlife
biologist or other knowledgeable wildlife (vulture) expert. Just more
innuendo and scary folk tales from the "rural countryside." For example, I
doubt whether between 1,500 and 3,000 black vultures nest in that army ammo
plant alone. Here is another case of humans encroaching more and more into
wildlife habitat (this time vulture habitat) and then getting all crazy over
the fact that the vultures didn't immediately leave when after the
subdivisions were built.

I urge someone in the Virginia ornithology community to respond to these
weird news reports - now - and set the record STRAIGHT.
Alan Gregory
Conyngham, PA
************************* ****************************
* Monica E. Gregory, PH.D.
* Asst. Prof, Psychology "We are trying to build a
* Penn State Hazleton university that our football team
* Hazleton PA 18201 can be proud of."
* Internet: meg5 at psu.edu Pres. University of Oklahoma
* Tel:(717)450-3188

>From macklins at UMICH.EDU Sun Apr 9 10:58:23 1995
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 12:12:03 -0400
From: Macklin Smith <macklins at UMICH.EDU>
Reply to: "National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line)"
<BIRDCHAT at listserv.Arizona.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list BIRDCHAT <BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black (and Turkey) Vultures and livestock

My first thought would be "just another sensationalist THE BIRDS sort of
story," but while staying with our beef-cattle raising friends in W.Va.
recently I noted the following. The cattle got fairly freaked, invariably,
by nearby TV's in flight, even by seeing their shadows, and my friends said
this was normal, especially during calving season (which this was). They
had certainly never seen vultures go after a calf, and wondered why this
fear of vultures would exist. We speculated idly about genetically
programmed fears, Lammergeiers, eagles, and so on. On several occasions
I observed TV's feeding on afterbirths--well away from cows--and the cows
appeared indifferent to this. The cows also would consign their
particular calves to what I called "day care centers," especially in
sinkholes, with one cow watching over the group. The cows would also
command their calves to lie perfectly still in a sheltered spot (for
example, next to a hay bale), as deer do their fawns. A stilled newborn
calf can look dead--did look dead, even to our cattlegrowing friends--so
I wonder if the vultures might get the same idea? Still, we never saw a
vulture approach a stilled calf; nor have our friends seen this. So it
sounds like the situation in Virginia is unusual if not fictional. Even
so, some of the bovine and vulturine (a word?) behaviors that we saw
might dovetail with the news story.

Macklin Smith
University of Michigan
macklins at umich.edu

>From Peter.D.Hunt at DARTMOUTH.EDU Sun Apr 9 10:58:35 1995
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 12:07:49 EDT
From: "Peter D. Hunt" <Peter.D.Hunt at DARTMOUTH.EDU>
Reply to: "National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line)"
<BIRDCHAT at listserv.Arizona.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list BIRDCHAT <BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black Vultures and livestock

I haven't heard of such behavior on the part of any New World Vulture, and
would certainly be interested in finding out more about the Virginia situation.
>From the article, however, it is not clear that the species involved is Black
Vulture, give the mention of "V" shaped wings, etc. Such behavior on the part
of Turkey Vultures, of course, would be just as bizarre.

Anyway, as to the question of potentially increased populations of vultures,
there may be a couple of factors at work. For one thing, there may well be
more dead wildlife around then we think there is. In many parts of the east,
populations of everthing from squirrels to moose are increasing, due in large
part (moose maybe being an exception) to human alterations of the environment
(loss of predators, feeding, habitat modification). I wouldn't be surprized if
there is a lot more mortality in these populations than is indicated by the
frequency of road kills. Second, how about landfills? These are supposedly
becoming more "sanitary" these days, but could increased vulture populations
represent some sort of lag time from the not-so-distant days of open dumps?
Finally, and the reasons behind this are far from understood, both species of
vulture are expanding there ranges north. TVs used to be a rare beast in
northern New England, but are now fairly regular right up to the Canadian
border and downright common in some areas. Thus the higher numbers in more
southerly regions may represent concentrations of migrating or wintering birds,
which will gradually leave as spring progresses.

Peter Hunt
Hanover, NH
warbler at dartmouth.edu

>From gpasq at DBINTELLECT.COM Sun Apr 9 17:42:00 1995
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 11:47:17 -0600
From: Greg Pasquariello <gpasq at DBINTELLECT.COM>
Reply to: "National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line)"
<BIRDCHAT at listserv.Arizona.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list BIRDCHAT <BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black Vultures and livestock

I've seen black vultures in South Jersey feeding on a calf being born.
I don't know if the calf was stillborn or not, but it was still in the process
of actually being born when the vultures got to it.

-Greg

[Quotation from my original message omitted here. BG]]

---
Greg Pasquariello "...and he sailed off through night and day
dbINTELLECT Technologies and in and out of weeks and almost over a year
gpasq at dbintellect.com to where the wild things are" - M. Sendak
---

>From bdalzell at NBNET.NB.CA Sun Apr 9 17:42:22 1995
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 19:21:02 AST
From: Brian Dalzell <bdalzell at NBNET.NB.CA>
Reply to: "National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line)"
<BIRDCHAT at listserv.Arizona.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list BIRDCHAT <BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: BLACK VULTURE HYPE

I don't suppose the original article appeared on April 1st? Although the
story has elements of truth in it, it is obviously blown out of proportion.

_______
| | Brian Dalzell, PO Box 145, Castalia, Grand Manan, N.B.
o> | E0G 1L0 CANADA
( )| | InterNet: bdalzell at nbnet.nb.ca
\"|ooo| "Good choices contain two ingredients: What I want to do
|___| and what ought to be done." -- Thom Black, `Born to Fly'

>From ian at MAILBOX.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Sun Apr 9 17:42:34 1995
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 16:51:17 -0700
From: ian at MAILBOX.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Reply to: "National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line)"
<BIRDCHAT at listserv.Arizona.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list BIRDCHAT <BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black Vultures and livestock

American Black Vultures, Coragyps atratus, are not exclusively scavengers, but
take nestling birds, hatching sea turtles, live fish etc. On Page 33 in the
"Handbook of Birds of the World" Vol 2 a photo caption reads in part, "...
It is species that actually kills most prey including livestock, especially
pigs." Text from pg 30 states "They [American Black Vultures] are also accused
of attacking newborn lambs and calves, and undoubtedly wait around domestic
stock to snatch the afterbirth." The text also indicates that Turkey Vultures,
Cathartes aura, have been accused of killing prey --usually very sick or young
animals. It does not amplify these remarks with a listing of animals killed by
Turkey Vulutures.

Cathartes Vultures are excellent scavengers finding food by both sight and
smell. The Black Vulture does not have the ability to find carrion by smell.
It is somewhat reliant on birds such as the Turkey Vulture to find its meals.
At a carcass Coragyps is quite agressive and will drive Turkey Vultures off.
Perhaps Coragyps atratus overcomes its relative lack of skill in finding
carrion with agressive behavior at a carcass and a stronger tendency to kill
live prey,

So yes American Black Vultures do indeed kill, but even they scavenge the
majority of their food, I suspect their practice of snatching the afterbirth
has led to exaggerations on the numbers of newborn livestock killed by these
birds.

Ian MacGregor
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
ian at slac.stanford.edu