Both Don and Jon have commented on the topic of a fair day's pay for a fair day's work and how amateurs undermine the status of the professional. I wholeheartedly agree.

The motivation for discussing the amateurs in research thread was twofold:

1) Address the need for some birders to do more than just list species.
2) Question the attitude that unless research is carried out by paid
professionals then the results are not as rigorous of scientifically valid
as could be produced by a career scientist.

So I think we are talking at cross-purposes though it has opened an interesting
angle on the debate.

I was talking to a researcher who was working on shorebirds. When I mentioned that my project on sanderling was likely to be very long term - 10 years or more
the reply was 'where are you going to get the grant from ?'

This is in a sense symptomatic of an attitude which limits the
aspirations of motivated individuals who may want to do more than simply
help out on a serious study run by professionals. But then again turning the argument against myself if people are motivated enough to do then they jsut get
on with it. I was told by several people that getting a banding permit was well nigh
impossible - however after cutting through all the fog it wasn't that hard
after all.

Maybe I'm really a frustrated zoologist who wasn't prepared to take the hit
in living standard that being a professional in the UK would have resulted in.
Most professional ornithologists I know sometimes only work 3 months of the year - in my opinion a digraceful situation which is exploited by many big name
conservation organisations.

Still to wind up - there is a potential waste of talent. Given the limitations
that most professionals experience it would certainly improve things to get
more pairs of hands and eyes out into the field. There is certainly an
set of legitimate concerns about observer quality, undermining professional
status etc.

I suppose the upshot of all this is that I am only really talking about
a couple of hundred people in the entire US. There are lots of banders in the
UK, most of which I wouldn't dream of using in a serious study. I suppose
the cream will always float to the top.....

Maybe science is really a priest(ess)hood which dispense knowledge to the
masses and should stay in my (currently very satisfying) place.

Stuart - frustrated zoologist or the next Martin Luther !!!!!
--
Stuart MacKay, Ravenna Ave NE, Seattle WA 98105.