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I'd like to add my two cents worth into this if I may please. Been =
following this discussion and there are a few characteristics that have =
not been mentioned that one can see in the field, in flight while =
watching these guys. Yes I do believe that it is (even for the =
experienced hawk watcher) to tell the difference of a COHA vs SSHA at a =
distance, and Michael makes a valid point of size differences. So many =
times have I stood at Hawk Cliff in St Thomas Ont. in the fall or at =
Beamer Point Grimsby Ont. during the morning rush of COHA and/or SSHA =
migration flights where like I said even the experienced watchers would =
say coop,shin,coop,shin.... and it just kept transforming back and =
forth. It can be difficult to tell from far away.=20
I'll give some detail as what to look at in flight by what Bill Clark =
told me when I met him. There are some interesting points too look for =
in flight that will differentiate the two. Remember, experience also =
plays a role in this as well, the more you see the easier it becomes. =
But let me say that even these are not concrete because for example one =
SSHA (f) may look like a COHA (m)!
SSHA (in flight) Look at the jizz:
a.. flies with a butterfly stroke. almost like a large butterfly with a =
somewhat locked (or fixed) wing, fast and rapid compared to a COHA
b.. on a glide the SSHA has its head tucked behind the wrists. So =
one sees the wrists project beyond the head
c.. it flies in a more erratic pattern than a COHA (this is quite a =
generalization though)
COHA (jizz) in flight:
a.. litterally looks like a crucafix in the air, very long tail in =
proportion to the body. And yes its rounder, sometimes the notch is =
visible.
b.. the head sticks out on the COHA glide (almost like a Buteo) and =
the wrists are pulled back. Remember that depends on the type of flight =
(glide, soar) the bird is in so discretion is to be used at times
c.. flaps more lethargically than a SSHA.
d.. the tail in the air looks as long as the body and head for the =
COHA but on a SSHA its about 3/4 as long as the rest of the bird. For =
example the SSHA (f) tail is 185 - 215mm and the COHA (m) tail lenght is =
<264mm that leaves a diiference of about 49mm max. Sometimes one can =
tell this in the air
Well, I hope this helps. They are quite general descriptions and =
should ALWAYS be used with plumage criteria, eye proportion (if =
possible) etc. Its quite difficult as I said and even the good birders =
sometimes miss. The arguments are fun to watch though!
Libor
----Original Message-----
From: Michael Price <mprice at mindlink.bc.ca>
To: tweeters at u.washington.edu <tweeters at u.washington.edu>
Date: December 30, 1997 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Identity of Starling-devouring-raptor=20
Dianne,
=20
>In truth, I find it EXTREMELY difficult to tell different hawks =
apart,=20
>especially when they go off into different phases. =20
>
>Can anyone out there in Tweeter land give a quick guide on how to=20
>differentiate a Cooper's from a Sharp Shin (without analyzing their =
>shins!)
=20
Probably not in the described circumstances, Dianne. Sharp-shinned =
Hawk=20
(SSHA) and Cooper's Hawk (COHA) are notoriously difficult to =
distinguish in=20
at-a-glance flyby's, and under most similar circumstances, I'd =
encourage you=20
to be satisfied with an 'accipiter sp.' sighting.
=20
There's the small-male/large-female thing. Measurements show none of =
the=20
accipiter species overlap but in the field, they seem to. Snap =
judgements=20
have two sides: proponents say first impressions are usually =
correct;=20
others, more cautious, wait for a mark to suggest identity. Either =
style is=20
okay as long as one's willing to not write anything in stone until a =
diagnostic mark shows up. That said, even in flash-by sightings COHA =
of=20
either sex sometimes suggests slim build, SSHA stockier.
=20
Jane's comment re looking at the tail is possibly the best =
suggestion in the=20
case of flash-by sightings, but could use a little amplification. =
The=20
square-vs.-rounded tail stuff is of little to no use in a quick =
sighting,=20
and is so dependent on too many things to be a consistent good =
mark--it's=20
certainly not one to use in isolation. One quick-sight mark you =
*might* be=20
able to use is that the COHA's tail is not only perceptibly longer =
than SSHA=20
but usually perceptibly narrower at the base than at the tip, =
whereas SSHA's=20
tail is the same width throughout and seems sorta short for the size =
of the=20
bird.
=20
I'd suggest too that if you do get more than a =
here-she-come-there-she-go=20
sighting, a COHA is sometimes ID'able, sometimes even obvious; the =
ID=20
problem is more often offered by SSHA.
=20
Echo Cliff and Rick R's reference suggestions: they're all useful =
and=20
field-portable.
=20
Michael Price A brave world, Sir,
Vancouver BC Canada full of religion, knavery and =
change;
mprice at mindlink.net we shall shortly see better days.
Aphra Behn (1640-1689)
=20
=20
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>I'd like to =
add my two=20
cents worth into this if I may please. Been following this =
discussion and=20
there are a few characteristics that have not been mentioned that one =
can see in=20
the field, in flight while watching these guys. Yes I do believe =
that it=20
is (even for the experienced hawk watcher) to tell the difference of a =
COHA vs=20
SSHA at a distance, and Michael makes a valid point of size =
differences. =20
So many times have I stood at Hawk Cliff in St Thomas Ont. in the fall =
or at=20
Beamer Point Grimsby Ont. during the morning rush of COHA and/or SSHA =
migration=20
flights where like I said even the experienced watchers would say=20
coop,shin,coop,shin.... and it just kept transforming back and =
forth. It=20
can be difficult to tell from far away. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>I'll give some detail as what =
to look at=20
in flight by what Bill Clark told me when I met him. There are =
some=20
interesting points too look for in flight that will differentiate the =
two. =20
Remember, experience also plays a role in this as well, the more you see =
the=20
easier it becomes. But let me say that even these are not =
concrete=20
because for example one SSHA (f) may look like a COHA (m)!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>SSHA (in flight) Look at the=20
jizz:</FONT></DIV>
<UL>
<LI><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>flies with a butterfly =
stroke. =20
almost like a large butterfly with a somewhat locked (or fixed) =
wing, fast=20
and rapid compared to a COHA</FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>on a glide the SSHA has =
its head=20
tucked behind the wrists. So one sees the wrists project =
beyond the=20
head</FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>it flies in a more erratic =
pattern=20
than a COHA (this is quite a generalization though)</FONT></LI></UL>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>COHA (jizz) in =
flight</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><B>:</B></FONT></DIV>
<UL>
<LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B></B></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>litterally looks like a crucafix in =
the=20
air, very long tail in proportion to the body. And yes =
its=20
rounder, sometimes the notch is visible.</FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>the head sticks out on the =
COHA glide=20
(almost like a Buteo) and the wrists are pulled back. Remember =
that=20
depends on the type of flight (glide, soar) the bird is in so =
discretion is=20
to be used at times</FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>flaps more lethargically than a=20
SSHA.</FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>the tail in the air looks =
as long as=20
the body and head for the COHA but on a SSHA its about 3/4 as long =
as the=20
rest of the bird. For example the SSHA (f) tail is 185 - 215mm and =
the COHA=20
(m) tail lenght is <264mm that leaves a diiference of about =
49mm=20
max. Sometimes one can tell this in the air</FONT></LI></UL>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Well, I hope this =
helps. They are=20
quite general descriptions and should ALWAYS be used with plumage =
criteria, eye=20
proportion (if possible) etc. Its quite difficult as I said and =
even the=20
good birders sometimes miss. The arguments are fun to watch=20
though!</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Libor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>Michael Price <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:mprice at mindlink.bc.ca">mprice at mindlink.bc.ca</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
</B><A =
href=3D"mailto:tweeters at u.washington.edu">tweeters at u.washington.edu</A>=20
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:tweeters at u.washington.edu">tweeters at u.washington.edu</A>&g=
t;<BR><B>Date:=20
</B>December 30, 1997 3:43 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Identity of=20
Starling-devouring-raptor <BR><BR> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px"></FONT>Dianne,<BR><BR>>In=20
truth, I find it EXTREMELY difficult to tell different hawks apart,=20
<BR>>especially when they go off into different phases. =20
<BR>><BR>>Can anyone out there in Tweeter land give a quick =
guide on=20
how to <BR>>differentiate a Cooper's from a Sharp Shin (without =
analyzing=20
their <BR>>shins!)<BR><BR>Probably not in the described =
circumstances,=20
Dianne. Sharp-shinned Hawk <BR>(SSHA) and Cooper's Hawk (COHA) are=20
notoriously difficult to distinguish in <BR>at-a-glance flyby's, and =
under=20
most similar circumstances, I'd encourage you <BR>to be satisfied =
with an=20
'accipiter sp.' sighting.<BR><BR>There's the small-male/large-female =
thing.=20
Measurements show none of the <BR>accipiter species overlap but in =
the=20
field, they seem to. Snap judgements <BR>have two sides: proponents =
say=20
first impressions are usually correct; <BR>others, more cautious, =
wait for a=20
mark to suggest identity. Either style is <BR>okay as long as one's =
willing=20
to not write anything in stone until a <BR>diagnostic mark shows up. =
That=20
said, even in flash-by sightings COHA of <BR>either sex sometimes =
suggests=20
slim build, SSHA stockier.<BR><BR>Jane's comment re looking at the =
tail is=20
possibly the best suggestion in the <BR>case of flash-by sightings, =
but=20
could use a little amplification. The <BR>square-vs.-rounded tail =
stuff is=20
of little to no use in a quick sighting, <BR>and is so dependent on =
too many=20
things to be a consistent good mark--it's <BR>certainly not one to =
use in=20
isolation. One quick-sight mark you *might* be <BR>able to use is =
that the=20
COHA's tail is not only perceptibly longer than SSHA <BR>but usually =
perceptibly narrower at the base than at the tip, whereas SSHA's =
<BR>tail is=20
the same width throughout and seems sorta short for the size of the=20
<BR>bird.<BR><BR>I'd suggest too that if you do get more than a=20
here-she-come-there-she-go <BR>sighting, a COHA is sometimes =
ID'able,=20
sometimes even obvious; the ID <BR>problem is more often offered by=20
SSHA.<BR><BR>Echo Cliff and Rick R's reference suggestions: they're =
all=20
useful and <BR>field-portable.<BR><BR>Michael=20
=
Price &n=
bsp; =20
A brave world, Sir,<BR>Vancouver BC=20
=
Canada &=
nbsp;=20
full of religion, knavery and change;<BR><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:mprice at mindlink.net">mprice at mindlink.net</A> &n=
bsp; =20
we shall shortly see better=20
=
days.<BR> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
=20
Aphra Behn (1640-1689)<BR><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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