THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING TO MY INFORMATION REQUEST.

Michael Price wrote:
>> Both were the same weight, both the same cost.
> Paul, if they were the same cost, you got either undercharged for the oil or
> overcharged for the striped.

I didn't want to get into seed pricing, but it does raise another
issue. Here in Ontario, if you purchase in 50 lb bags, both types are
usually the same price (both regular price and sales specials). In
smaller amounts, oil usually costs more. For comparison, I just paid
$15.99 Cdn ($1l.67 US) per 50 lb bag of each type. That was an
advertised sale.... normal cost is $16.79. The source is a farmers
CO-OP which always has better quality seed (particularly in mixed seed)
at much better prices than ANY of the big chain stores. In SFSeed,
better quality usually just means less garbage in it, but what was done
to the seeds in processing. Since I don't eat them, it is difficult to
otherwise judge quality. I have observed one SFSeed looks pretty much
like the other. :)

>> Which type of seed when hulled has the highest yield by weight,
>> and provides the most birdfeed?

> Oil. With the reservation that from the bird's point of view the important
> thing is not the most by volume, but the highest energy content per volume.

The purpose behind this poorly worded question, was to discover,
considering nutrition, cost, and waste, whether we should be feeding oil
seed instead of striped, and the relative merits of each type. Given
the characteristics of oil, all birds should have an easier time
handling it; but you use more because they eat more. But is switching
to just oil the "right thing to do" from the viewpoint of providing the
best possible feed to birds? I dunno.

> >There seems to have been some research in 1994 indicating
> >decomposing hulls leach toxins harmful to grass and other plant life.
> >This has ramifications in cleanup around feeders, and methods of
> >disposing of hulls, and their use (or not) in composting.

> Can you post this research, Paul? I've not heard of this aspect. Certainly,
> wet seed hulls that have lain a long time get moldy and serve as a good
> medium for salmonella. I'd think frequent cleaning and policing the feeders
> and ground beneath should solve this problem.

I located one net reference to a study, and received several birder
responses that decomposing hulls killed grass and plants, not from
crowding out grass, but by leaching toxins. I had a similar experience
and it seems worth examing to know what is occurring. i.e.

ITEM: Are sunflower seeds poisinous to grass??
Posted by: Bill Brink - zn 5 IN (bbrink at inetdirect.net)
on Monday, October 13, 1997 at 21:20

RE: Sunflower alleopathy: In Fine Gardening issue #37, May/June 1994,
Frank Einhellig, plant physiologist of Southwest Missouri State
University replied:

Sunflowers produce a number of compounds in their stems, leaves,
and in the hulls of their seeds that will inhibit the growth of a
variety of plants. Mulching with sunflower hulls could harm plants
because toxins could leach from the hulls into the soil and inhibit the
growth of susceptible plants.
--------------------
I will be pursuing this. It is interesting... but how harmful?


> >What are the ramifications of toxins if any, in relation to
> >health of insects, birds, and animal life?
>
> Toxins tend to shorten abruptly insect, birds, and animal life. Is there
> something more specific you're wondering about here? The query's a bit
> open-ended.

Yes. If something is toxic enough to kill grass and plants, is it also
harmful to other forms of life (which may also be a form of birdfood).
It also appears to mean people who are mulching and composting sunflower
hulls shouldn't, and from my perspective, makes me wonder whether toxins
in the food chain are harmful too.

>>Are all sunflower seeds processed as birdfood created equal?

> Yes, but they're everywhere in chains. Costco, Sears, Walmart. (Ba-da-doom)
> Thankyuh, thankyuh, yore wunnerful. '-)

Without singling out any source that has lousy product (until there is
evidence to support it), large chain stores while perhaps comparable in
their own peer group, are in my book suspect in the quality of almost
ALL their seed products compared to sources that are specific seed
suppliers... i.e farm supply stores, dedicated seed stores. I
recognize getting them to release a factual breakdown of content could
be challenging, but WHY SHOULD CONSUMERS FIGHT FOR THIS INFORMATION...
WHY ISN'T IT REQUIRED TO BE DISPLAYED!

> >Is it possible we should be
> >more discerning in the selection and purchase of sunflower seeds we are
> >feeding our birds?

> More discerning than what? The highest standard I can think of is
> organically-grown seed that's double- or triple-screened to remove twigs,
> stones and other detritus.

I simply meant that perhaps we should exercise more care in what we are
purchasing - not buy blindly thinking all product is equal because it
says "seed" on the label, and mostly, purchase with the benefit and
health of birds in mind. Right now I'm not so sure we are, and not so
sure we have the information we need to do that.

> One thing to remember, Paul, is that *if*--and I'm not taking a stance
> either way--there are toxins present they'd be there in very small
> quantities, and since there's been no reported mortality from regular bird
> seed we can assume that any alleged toxicity is not acute, but may be
> cumulative. But for the sake of the discussion, let's grant the assumption
> that there is a toxin that if accumulated over a period of ten years will
> eventually kill a small bird. This to a bird that's old at five years will
> not be a problem.

This may well be so Michael. My purpose was to discover just that.. is
it, or is it not, harmful and/or significant.

> Why not research and collate the information and publish an article in one
> of the bird (not birding) magazines?

I certainly will share, in whatever form seems most appropriate,
whatever the research indicates.

> >The amount of birdseed sold in Canada and the USA
> >has to be a staggering sum.

> Compared to the Pentagon's thirty-thousand dollar toilet seats, <snip> :)

BIRDING IS BIG BUSINESS. WHERE THERE IS BIG MONEY, BUSINESS WILL
RESPOND IF THEIR CASH COW IS THREATENED. The amount spent on birdseed
alone might shock a lot of people. In the little rural farming town I
reside in, the farmer's CO-OP brings in five tractor trailor loads each
winter of sunflower seeds alone, and that is just the 50 lb bag sales.
Add all the other size of bags, types of seed, feeders, etc then
multiply that by a big bunch, and you have a rather startling annual
number... nationally a staggering one. Purpose here was to learn the
facts and provide them to folks... so they realize what is involved...
that collectively birders have market clout if they choose to exercise
it.

> >I think collectively it would be wise for
> >us to look at our feeding practices - what exactly are we buying and
> >feeding and why? Do we really know? Are we taking a lot for granted?
> >Are we doing the right thing? For that matter, what is the right thing?

> Good questions. 'Why' in particular. In my humble opinion, and that's all it
> is, we don't really know, and I think we take nearly everything for granted.
> Whether we're doing the right thing depends on what you mean by 'doing and
> 'right'. Your final question is one philosphers show no sign of being ready
> to answer any time soon.

About "Are we doing the right thing? What is the right thing?".... in
this case nothing esoteric or philosophical is intended. My purpose is
to question the status quo in thinking (and not thinking) about feeding
the birds we love, from a FACTUAL standpoint. We all WANT what is best
for them, but are we really DOING what is best for them? If we can find
reliable data to provide the answers to the questions, perhaps it will
help us do better. I would just like to know. One constant among
birders is that THEY CARE. They WANT to do the right thing.

THANKS FOR A VERY INTERESTING RESPONSE.
If anyone considers the subject matter too 'bulky' for the list, I would
love to hear from you via email on all or any of the questions. Thanks
all.

-- Paul, Northern Ontario <pgparlee at onlink.net>