Hal, Paul, and other Tweeters:

The 41st Supplement indeed seemed to create more questions than it
answered. Sorry for the length of this reply, but hopefully it will help.

Cut and pasted after your recent messages you will find a thread that
includes clarifying information from Dick Banks, Chair of the AOU Checklist
Committee. The end of this contains the referenced waterfowl order list.
Although the waterfowl order is not contained "in" the 41st Supplement,
this information from the Chair should probably be considered as "official"
until the 7th Edition is published.

Hope this helps.

Phil Davis
Davidsonville, MD



At 08:55 PM 09/27/1997 -0700, you wrote:
>>Paul Duval writes:
>>
>>> Could anyone suggest a reference to llok up a few of these changes,
>>>some of which may also have been overlooked.
>>
>>Paul [says Michael Price], there's a website with all the recent changes
>>on it >plus the complete North American checklist in the newer sequence:
>
>http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~tross/nabirds.html
>
>A word of caution:
>
>The "official" check-list is the one maintained by the American
>Ornithologists' Union (AOU), and they do not put it out on a web site.
>Until the seventh edition of their Check-list is published, probably early
>next year, the "official" list is the sixth edition (1983) as modified by
>the Supplements that appear in the July issue of Auk in each odd-numbered
>year. The most recent of these details numerous radical changes in the
>ordering of families, genera, and species. It also hints at other such
>radical changes that will appear in the forthcoming new edition of the
>Check-list, but does not spell these out.
>
>The check-list in the above referenced web site is *not* an official AOU
>list, nor is any of the several other, more or less similar lists that can
>be found on other web sites. The one above differs from the "authentic"
>(i.e., published) AOU list notably in the sequence of the waterfowl
>(Anseriformes). This is one of the cases where the July 1997 Supplement in
>Auk does indeed state that a rearrangment will occur in the seventh
>edition, but (maddeningly) does not reveal what the actual arrangement is
>going to be. For the Anseriformes,the author of the above check-list is
>basing himself on scuttlebut (which will probably turn out to be accurate
>scuttlebut). Nonetheless, until the new AOU Check-list is actually
>published, the canonical sequence of the waterfowl species remains as it
>was before, i.e., the way we are used to seeing it and *not* the way it
>appears on this web site.
>
>***************************************************************
>Hal Opperman - P. O. Box 286 - Medina, Washington 98039 - USA
>halop at accessone.com - phone (425) 635-0503 - fax (425) 635-0271
>***************************************************************
>
>
>
>



Hi Dick [Banks]!

My name is Phil Davis and I am the Secretary of the Maryland/DC Records
Committee. A message from me to Birdchat a few days ago may have
contributed to John Trapp sending you his message asking about
clarifications on the latest AOU Check-List Supplement. John's message and
your reply are provided below.

I thank you for providing the additional information, however, I was
surprised by your answer ... I thought sure that you would confirm our
suspicious that only the eleven enumerated points would be effective with
the 41st supplement and apply (only) to the 6th edition. I thought sure
(from the words in the text that John quoted) that the remaining taxonomy
changes would not be "effective" until the 7th edition was published.

This may seem pedantic, but being a computer-type person by profession, I
look for discrete times or events when things formally change state.
Therefore, if the taxonomy changes are effective with the 41st supplement,
then is that not the point at which they are effective ... rather than with
the publication of the 7th edition, as the supplement states. These two
approaches seem inconsistent to me.

As with most bird-related organizations, the Maryland Ornithological
Society relies totally on the AOU for taxonomy. I wonder, for example, how
Audubon Field Notes will handle this transition with all of its field
reporters and editors. It made perfect sense to me that everyone should
prepare for but expect to make the formal "big switch" on the day the 7th
edition arrives in the mail.

What I thought I had figured out (incorrectly, however, according to your
email message) seemed like the perfect plan. Namely, give all of us people
who maintain databases and publish checklists the next two years or so to
"get ready" for the 7th edition. Then, when you do publish it, we would
all be ready to formally convert to the new taxonomy at that point in time.

So, is there any chance that this really is the way the changes should
unfold? If so, then perhaps a statement to that effect that could be
posted on Birdchat. This would help to keep us all on the "same sheet of
music". If this is not the intent, then I am still confused between the
words in the supplement and your message to John.

I do not mean to put words in your mouth, or suggest I know more than the
committee. I'm merely trying to apply my systems analyst background to a
transition situation and have everyone synchronized as to what is the
official AOU checklist at any given point in time.

If my concerns are not clear, please feel free to ask me to try to better
articulate them! Also, I may have completely misinterpreted something
along the line.

Thanks for all the hard work by you and the committee.

Phil Davis
Secretary
MD/DC Records Committee
Davidsonville, MD

PDavis at ix.netcom.com
(301) 220-7192 work
(301) 261-0184 home


>Return-Path: <owner-birdchat at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
>Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:44:05 -0700
>Reply-To: john_trapp at MAIL.FWS.GOV
>Sender: "National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line)"
> <BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
>From: John Trapp <john_trapp at MAIL.FWS.GOV>
>Subject: 41st AOU Supplement
>To: BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>
> In a message posted earlier today (07/22/97) I expressed
> confusion regarding certain items in the 41st supplement to the
> AOU Check-list. An inquiry to Richard Banks, chairman of the
> Check-list Committee, elicited the following clarification,
> which he has kinkly allowed me to post to BircChat.
>
> * * * * * * * * * *
>
> John--Thanks for the inquiry on effective dates and confusion
> related to the 41st Supplement to the AOU Check-list. I
> apologize for the confusion.
>
> One who is familiar with previous supplements will recalll that
> they gave detailed accounts or statements that were intended to
> physically replace (if one wanted to go to the effort) accounts
> or statements in the 1983 edition of the check-list. Because
> the 7th edition is imminent (although not as much so as I would
> like) we don't really expect people to doctor up their old
> volumes at this stage. So, we just said what was going to be
> different, leaving details fo the next edition. All the
> taxonomic changes may be considered as taking effect with
> publication of the Supplement.
>
> The ranking and sequence changes are not things that we would
> expect readers or users to do physically at any rate. As
> concepts, these changes can take effect immediately. They will
> not take effect in the check-list until the 7th edition is out.
> I would expect that anyone preparing a regional list or database
> managers would incorporate the new sequences and rankings now.
>
> The Anseriformes do pose a problem, which we did not forsee. I
> should have given a list of species. I guess that trying to
> make the deadline for the July Auk and trying to keep the
> supplement to a reasonable length kept me from thinking of that.
> However, I will fax or mail to anyone who needs to know a list
> of the waterfowl in the order in which they will appear in the
> next check-list. [NOTE: I have requested a copy of the
> waterfowl list from Richard, and will post it to BirdChat as
> soon as I receive it--JLT.]
>
> There is also a problem with the albatrosses (Diomedeidae),
> where the sequence in the Supplement does not match that of the
> check-list manuscript. In the check-list, the species will be
> chlororhynchus, cauta, melanophris, palpebrata, exulans,
> immutabilis, nigripes, and albatrus, in the genera given in the
> supplement, with the obvious generic sequence Thalassarche,
> Phoebetria, Diomedea, and Phoebastria.
>
> And, we did not indicate where the kinglets should go when
> raised to family level. They precede the Sylviidae.
>
> Again, I apologize for the confusion caused by wording or
> imprecision.
>
> You may post this on Birdchat if you wish, to answer everybody's
> questions. Do not hesitate to contact me if other things come
> up.
>
> Dick Banks
>
>
>
>
>
>______________________________ Forward Header
__________________________________
>Subject: 41st AOU Supplement
>Author: John Trapp at 9AR-MBMO
>Date: 07/22/97 12:16 PM
>
>
> Dick:
>
> Publication of the 41st supplement has caused some confusion as
> to which of the changes were meant to be effective immediately
> upon publication (as supplements to the 6th edition), and which
> are provided for information only as a prelude to major changes
> that will take place with the 7th edition.
>
> The introductory paragraph of the supplement states that:
>
> "Because this will be the last supplement before the publication
> of the 7th edition of the Check-list, it also summarizes OTHER
> DECISIONS made by the Committee since 1983 THAT WERE NOT
> INTENDED TO AFFECT THE 6TH EDITION but rather were to lay the
> foundation for its successor. Most of THOSE DECISIONS RELATE TO
> SEQUENCE OR RANK OF CERTAIN TAXONOMIC CATEGORIES" [emphasis
> added].
>
> Further on, the supplement summarizes "CHANGES TO THE MAIN
> SPECIES LIST OF THE 6TH EDITION" [emphasis added], which fall
> into 11 categories (and include additions and deletions of
> species, and changes to scientific or English names). My
> interpretation is that it is only these changes that are
> effective with publication of the 41st supplement, and that
> changes affecting taxonomic sequences of species or taxonomic
> categories above the species level are not meant to become
> effective until publication of the 7th edition. Is my
> interpretation correct?
>
> If not, then how are database managers and others wishing to
> maintain bird lists in correct AOU checklist order between now
> and the publication of the 7th edition to deal with statements
> such as the following:
>
> "pp. 60-97. The classification and sequence of the
> Anseriformes are based on studies by Livesey (especially 1991,
> 1995a, 1995b, 1995c, 1996a, 1996b), although they differ in
> minor details."
>
> I'd appreciate any insight you can provide, Dick. I hope the
> leadership at USGS is treating you well.
>
> John L. Trapp
> U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
> Office of Migratory Bird Management
> Arlington, Virginia USA
> john_trapp at fws.gov
>

Norm -

... and here is part two.

Hope this helps!


Phil

PS - Did everything come out OK in the YT?


>Return-Path: <owner-birdchat at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:25:27 -0700
>Reply-To: john_trapp at MAIL.FWS.GOV
>Sender: "National Birding Hotline Cooperative (Chat Line)"
> <BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>
>From: John Trapp <john_trapp at MAIL.FWS.GOV>
>Subject: Waterfowl Sequence: 41st AOU Supplement
>To: BIRDCHAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>
> As promised (in a message dated 07/22/97), I am posting a list
> of North America waterfowl in new AOU Check-list order.
> Although the recently published 41st supplement provided notice
> of major changes in classification and sequence within this
> group, it did not include details. The following is provided
> courtesy of Richard Banks and the Check-list Committee. I have
> tried to duplicate exactly the list provided by Dr. Banks, but
> any spelling errors are my own.
>
> Order ANSERIFORMES
> Family ANATIDAE
> Subfamily Dendrocygninae
> Dendrocygna viduata, White-faced Whistling-Duck
> Dendrocygna autumnalis, Black-bellied Whistling-Duck
> Dendrocygna arborea, West Indian Whistling-Duck
> Dendrocygna bicolor, Fulvous Whistling-Duck
> Subfamily Anserinae
> Anser fabalis, Bean Goose
> Anser brachyrhynchus, Pink-footed Goose
> Anser albifrons, Greater White-fronted Goose
> Anser erythropus, Lesser White-fronted Goose
> Chen canagica, Emperor Goose
> Chen caerulescens, Snow Goose
> Chen rossii, Ross's Goose
> Branta canadensis, Canada Goose
> Branta sandvicensis, Hawaiian Goose
> Branta bernicla, Brant
> Branta leucopsis, Barnacle Goose
> Cygnus olor, Mute Swan
> Cygnus buccinator, Trumpeter Swan
> Cygnus columbianus, Tundra Swan
> Cygnus cygnus, Whooper Swan
> Subfamily Tadorninae
> Sarkidiornis melanotos, Comb Duck
> Neochen jubata, Orinoco Goose
> Subfamily Anatinae
> Cairina moschata, Muscovy Duck
> Aix sponsa, Wood Duck
> Anas strepera, Gadwall
> Anas falcata, Falcated Duck
> Anas penelope, Eurasian Wigeon
> Anas americana, American Wigeon
> Anas rubripes, American Black Duck
> Anas platyrhynchos, Mallard
> Anas fulvigula, Mottled Duck
> Anas wyvilliana, Hawaiian Duck
> Anas poecilorhyncha, Spot-billed Duck
> Anas discors, Blue-winged Teal
> Anas cyanoptera, Cinnamon Teal
> Anas clypeata, Northern Shoveler
> Anas bahamensis, White-cheeked Pintail
> Anas acuta, Northern Pintail
> Anas querquedula, Garganey
> Anas formosa, Baikal Teal
> Anas crecca, Green-winged Teal
> Aythya valisineria, Canvasback
> Aythya americana, Redhead
> Aythya ferina, Common Pochard
> Aythya collaris, Ring-necked Duck
> Aythya fuligula, Tufted Duck
> Aythya marila, Greater Scaup
> Aythya affinis, Lesser Scaup
> Polysticta stelleri, Steller's Eider
> Somateria fischeri, Spectacled Eider
> Somateria spectabilis, King Eider
> Somateria mollissima, Common Eider
> Histrionicus histrionicus, Harlequin Duck
> Camptorhynchus labradorius, Labrador Duck
> Melanitta perspicillata, Surf Scoter
> Melanitta fusca, White-winged Scoter
> Melanitta nigra, Black Scoter
> Clangula hyemalis, Oldsquaw
> Bucephala albeola, Bufflehead
> Bucephala clangula, Common Goldeneye
> Bucephala islandica, Barrow's Goldeneye
> Mergellus albellus, Smew
> Lophodytes cucullatus, Hooded Merganser
> Mergus serrator, Red-breasted Merganser
> Mergus merganser, Common Merganser
> Nomonyx dominicus, Masked Duck
> Oxyura jamaicensis, Ruddy Duck
>
> John L. Trapp
> U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
> Office of Migratory Bird Managment
> Arlington, Virginia USA
> john_trapp at fws.gov
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Davis

home: PDavis at ix.netcom.com Davidsonville, Maryland, USA
work: PDavis at OAO.com Greenbelt, Maryland, USA
------------------------------------------------------------