I love tweeters for the debate and diversity of views, even more than for the bird posts. I live in the Tri-Cities, and cannot possibly read tweeters for the birds found in Olympia, Shoreview park or even Wenas. (I make it over there occasionally, and of course tweeters helps and encourages these trips, but. that's not why I read and subscribe.) Any east-side posts (such as the Lazuli Bunting) are icing on the cake. I should get out more and do more posting myself. I should contribute more on the bird front. I try, I really do.

But this debate on exclusion is losing its focus. It is not about viewpoints or scientific knowledge, but civility, respect, and tolerance. I think the abolishment of ignorance is a laudable goal, but is this really the forum? If it is the forum, who do we appoint to be our resident teachers and ignorance cops? Does subscribing to a BIRDING list make us all wanna-be scientists, searching for ways to upset our value system and challenge our beliefs? I'm always up for a challenge myself, but should I push that challenge on others who may not want it, and here, to people I don't know from Adam himself? I submit that it is not for me to do. Especially here, where many subscribe and share sightings simply for comeraderie(sp?) and fellowship, not to be told they're ignorant and stupid.

I hope for more cat debate, but does it do any good to call a cat owner names, or does it simply alienate them? Lest we overstate our own importance, any opinions expressed on this list are all but non-factors in any sincere belief system, whether it's regarding cats, coffee or evolution. Attacking and belittling, especially via e-mail of all things, does not change opinions, it merely serves to aggrandize ourselves and divide needlessly what is a rather unique and diverse group.

I guess I would like to see debate on a variety of issues relevant to birds (and dragonflies), together with all the sightings possible, but without the arrogance and confrontation (and sometimes outright insults and profanity) that seems not only unnecessary, but pathetically out of place on a list like this. Gosh, if you have to abolish ignorance go to the legislature--call THEM stupid. Maybe there it will do some good.

With a fun smile on my face, non-facetiously because I really do like this,

Brent Ripley
brentr at hawlaw.com
----------
From: Tom Foote
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 2:26 AM
To: Dan Victor
Cc: Tweeters (Cascadia) Birding Email
Subject: Re: new guidelines for posting on Tweeters



On Wed, 25 Aug 1999, Dan Victor wrote:


[snip..]


> However, please feel free to write to me privately any comments you have
> on this or anything else at dcv at scn.org
>

Dan--

Read and re-read Rob Conway's post.. it's really sad to
see it.. and it's even sadder to realize he's no longer on
the List. Is this what you really want?

Admittedly I haven't seen the pvt posts you have received
but the weak, ineffectual arguments of Jerry Converse based
in his own reigous belief certainly pale by comparsion to
the thoughtfully articulated rationales put forth by
Don and Rob.. and I mean nothing negative about Jerry..
when he left the list, I wrote him and asked him to
reconsider as I thought his E. WA postings were homey
and nice.. BUT his posts do not reflect the depth of
thinking Don and Rob put forth..and we deep sixed Don
and drove Rob away.. so, do I conclude that we lose
the heavy end of the intellectual batting order because
some folks are put off by "style"..i.e., they gloss over
the content and just want this to be a quilting bee?

I think you really need to decide what you want here.
most of the Listers are not particularly well versed in
the science and theory that those posters provided, so
I thought it was really a plus for us to have that kind
of input.

to play to those among us who are offended by the grit
of a real argument and put off by the passion displayed
by those who really have something to say and who feel
strongly about cats, coffee, habitat, etc.. is a big
mistake.. the list will water down and become something
none of us will want to do any more.

I really liked it when Dennis, Don and I kicked around
the limerick thread and the puns.. punctuated by
Burt Guttman's great post that began " Let osprey
that we won't. etc etc..
that was intellectual activity at it's finest moment..
and I, and a few others, put a lot of energy into
getting Yakthon together.. that was a milestone..

I really would like to see us get back to that, Dan..
let it rip..get those guys back on board and tell
the pantywaists to get a life.. they can take it.

As Christians aren't they supposed to "turn the other
cheek?" :)

Tom