Subject: Pecked to death by starlings - Replying to Flame - Please Delete if Not Personally Applicable
Date: Jan 28 15:32:56 2001
From: Jon. Anderson and Marty Chaney - festuca at olywa.net


I apologize for replying to the list on this subject, but I wish to clear my
name regarding a post to the list.

"Rob Conway" wrote:

>Now that the human STARLINGS on Tweeters have pecked yet another regular
>contributor to death - so sorry Michelle - I have at last decided that this
>is it - I'm out of here.

Robin - Sorry to lose you from the community. Your contributions to the
Tweeters list were valuable.

>I said this once before, when Don Baccus was banned from the list, but was
>encouraged by others to stay on. I did stay, but the list hasn't been the
>same since. If Jon Anderson isn't banned from Tweeters, the way Don was,
>then something is really wrong - are you there Dan???

If you would re-read my original post, you might see that I did not "attack"
Michelle. I did note that the actions one of her unnamed acquaintances, in
allowing an animal to starve to death in a trap rather than killing it
humanely, was less than humane; I stand by that contention. I also noted
that a state and/or federal permit was needed if any native, legally
protected bird was trapped incidentally to the starling trapping; It is. I
did go on to editorialize for a bit about the place of invasive species in
an invaded landscape - again, refraining from any personal attacks.

If that's "flaming" on a Don Baccus-scale, I would apologize. I don't
believe that it is. I certainly don't have Don's command of logic, strength
of argument, or clarity of expression. If Dan asks me to leave his list, I
certainly would. But, I wouldn't do so because of thin-skinned people
getting bent out of shape when someone disagrees with their dogma and
strident rhetoric.

On the other hand, I welcomed Don's sharp wit, insight, and observations.
Because of his style, and what happened when he 'crossed the line' in
personal interactions on the list, I think most of us have been pretty good
about keeping the discussions on topic, without falling into personal
attacks (see next paragraph....).

>There are some fine and wonderful contributors here - The Sullivans, Wayne
>Weber, Dian "TV" McC, Gene Hunn, Kelly McCallister and Ian Paulson come to
>mind. There are also some real schmucks.

I won't pull a Noel Wamer, and demand a public apology (Tweeters archives
November 1998) for your calling me a "Schmuck" [American Heritage
Dictionary: Schmuck. n. Slang. A clumsy or stupid person. (Yiddish shmok,
penis, fool < G. Schumck, ornament < MLG smuck.)], but I would ask that you
refrain from the personal public attacks on me, Robin. I do not believe
that I have acted in such a way to the Tweeters community in general or to
any member in particular, and would ask for the same respect: Attack my
identification skills, my conclusions, my ideas, my rhetoric or my logic,
but not me. I'm really not too bad a person, even if my viewpoints diverge
from yours.

>From the Tweeters standpoint I've been flamed a number of times both on and
>off line. Usually water off of a ducks back (required bird reference
here).
> I've actually met a couple of nice people through the flames - one
>accusing me of reporting "an impossible bird" until I took them to it the
>next Saturday - Yellow Billed Cuckoo indeed. Vigorous discussion is GOOD -
>being nasty either on or off line just isn't acceptable.

Like calling someone a schmuck?

When we keep our discussions and exchanges focused on the issues, we avoid
these kind of 'flames'. Hopefully then, the people with strongly-held
opinions will not feel that they must take replies in opposition to their
points of view as personal attacks, and we can all interact with each others
as adults.

>My grandmother taught me very early in life that some people and some
things
>just aren't worth the time, the worry or the effort they take; I've come to
>the conclusion that Tweeters is one of those things.

On the other hand, my grandmother taught me that people are good and bad, to
give everyone the benefit of the doubt and to take the good where you find
it. I have found that Tweeters is an excellent group of people who care
passionately about birds, about the environment, and about each other.
Nothing I've seen since 1994 has persuaded me otherwise. Your attack on me,
notwithstanding.

>Bye Tweets - this time for good.
>Robin Conway
>Bellevue WA
>Life list now just short of 3900
>Hoping to make it to 4000 with a trip to Vietnam this year

I'm impressed and jealous that you found the YB Cuckoo, Robin. Cool bird!
Enjoy your trip to SE Asia.

Jon. Anderson
Olympia, Washington
Life list somewhere short of 600... hoping to see birds anytime, anywhere,
any species