Greetings All,
Thanks Gene for bringing the title of that work by David W. Johnston to our
attention. Does anyone know how to get,borrow, or maybe even steal a copy?
Good Birding,
Dave Beaudette
Shoreline
drtbrdr at earthlink.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Hunn <enhunn at Home.com>
To: Hummer at isomedia.com <Hummer at isomedia.com>; Tweeters (E-mail)
<TWEETERS at u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: "Northwestern Crows" (from Burt Guttman)


>Tweets,
>
>There was a careful study done in the late 1950's which concluded that all
>measurements (of specimens of adult crows collected during the breeding
>season) increased clinally from the Victoria, BC area as you move south
>through Puget Sound to the Columbia River (David W. Johnston, The
>Biosystematics of American Crows_, University of Washington Press, 1961).
>Johnston, however, did not analyze vocalizations systematically and his
>research was done before modern DNA analysis was possible. For whatever
>reason, the powers that be (the AOU checklist committee) have chosen to
>disregard the results of that study, maintaining the Northwestern Crow at
>the species level. For historical interest, it hasn't always been
recognized
>as a distinct species. In fact, W.L. Dawson in his classic _The Birds of
>Washington_ (1910) heaped scorn on those (East Coassters) who jumped to the
>conclusion that the Northwestern Crow was a species on the analogy of the
>Fish Crow. The evolutionary histories of the two cases are quite
>differerent, in large part because the geological/glaciological histories
of
>the Pacific Northwest are very different from that of the Atlantic coast
>(the Fish Corw apparently evolving in the Caribbean; the Northwestern Crow
>most likely isolated for a much shorter time in an ice-age refugium). The
>fact that the great majority of local birders and ornithologists have given
>up trying to distinguish two sympatric crow species in the Pacific
Northwest
>while the experts on the AOU committee, who have much less experience in
>this area, affirm its species status may explain why the two have not yet
>been lumped. I remain open to being convinced otherwise if and when I see
>some evidence to support the idea that there are two species of crows here.
>
>Gene Hunn.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Michael Hobbs" <Hummer at isomedia.com>
>To: "Tweeters (E-mail)" <TWEETERS at u.washington.edu>
>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 1:26 PM
>Subject: Re: "Northwestern Crows" (from Burt Guttman)
>
>
>> Denny - I think the real question here is "How can you tell?" On what
>basis
>> should we write down "American Crow" versus "Northwestern Crow", even if
>we
>> *do* believe there are more than one species?
>>
>> What field marks do we need to observe? Or what habitat is essential?
Or
>what
>> geographic boundaries need to be crossed?
>>
>> I think it's pretty clear that the vast majority of urban Seattle crows
>are
>> American and not Northwestern. If I recall correctly, the original
>reference
>> was to crows slightly north of Seattle (correct me if I'm wrong). Given
>that
>> there *may* be some Northwestern Crows along the beaches north of
Seattle,
>it
>> is appropriate to question an identification to species of the crows
>involved.
>>
>> I personally *think* I've seen and heard a difference between the crows
in
>Neah
>> Bay and the crows in Redmond, and I call the former "Northwestern Crow".
>But
>> if one of those showed up in my yard in Kirkland, I doubt I could tell.
>>
>> I guess we ought to be calling them "Crow sp." unless there is reason to
>> believe otherwise, and if there IS reason to believe otherwise, we ought
>to be
>> prepared to explain.
>>
>> == Michael Hobbs
>> == Kirkland WA
>> == hummer at isomedia.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <osprey at nwinfo.net>
>> To: <TWEETERS at u.washington.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 12:34 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Northwestern Crows" (from Burt Guttman)
>>
>>
>> > We can't go through life making our own rules. We have to follow some
>sort
>> > of order in our activities. As far as the activity of birds and
>birding,
>> > the AOU is the (or "a") governing body. Until someone provides them
>with
>> > scientific documentation that shows for certain that American and
>> > Northwestern Crows are the same species, and they make that change in
>the
>> > list, it seems to me that we should follow their list as it stands.
>> >
>> > The fact that "most ornithologists in this area" might believe the
crows
>are
>> > of the same species doesn't matter unless they are proving it with
>> > scientific research. There used to be a lot of experts who thought the
>> > world was flat until "research" proved them wrong. Lets let the
>research
>> > prove this case. I understand that several studies are underway and
>> > hopefully we won't have to wait much longer for the results.
>> >
>> > It does seem odd, though, that many of the birders who don't list the
>> > Northwestern Crow will include it on a Big Day or Birdathon list for
>enhance
>> > the numbers.
>> >
>> > Denny Granstrand
>> > Yakima, WA
>> > * * * * * * * * * * *
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>