Steve,

As far as I know all the "blue" grouses at and west of the Cascade Crest are Sooties and all our "Winter Wrens" are Pacifics.

Our crows will sound funny if you're coming directly from the east, but see if you can find anywhere on the west coast where there is a clear demarcation in vocalizations amongst the crows. Also, in response to Tyler, I know of no significant or reliable behavioral nor habitat contrasts that would allow one to separate two populations of crows in the Pacific Northwest. If there really were two species of crows here there must be some distinction between them, whether or not there is a hybrid zone. An if there is a hybrid zone, it must be hundreds of miles wide. That doesn't fit the usual examples. I suspect we have a comparable issue here with our "Western Flycatchers."

Also, it may be worth noting that the "Northwestern Crow" was considered a subspecies of American Crow until, I believe, sometime in the 1930s. In fact, William Dawson ridiculed the idea of two crows in his classic The Birds of Washington published in 1909. I think he was right.

Gene.

-----Original Message-----
From: scompton1251 at charter.net [mailto:scompton1251 at charter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 4:51 AM
To: Eugene and Nancy Hunn
Cc: 'Lyn Topinka'; tweeters at u.washington.edu
Subject: RE: [Tweeters] RFI - Northewestern Crow ...

Gene and Washington birders,

You appear to disagree with Opperman, who says in the ABA "A Birder's
Guide to Washington" that Northwestern Crows can be found at La Push.
Bummer. From my perspective as a South Carolina-based birder visiting
the Pacific NW, the small crows in Seattle sure do sound "funny". I
guess I'm not totally sold on DNA as a single indicator of speciation.
Maybe that's because I'm a lister, and I want it to be that way.

Another question: I'll be in Seattle in July and hope to get out to the
North Cascades hightway (SR20) and maybe to the western Okanogan
Highlands. Are the "Blue" grouse there all safely "Sooties" and are the
"Winter" Wrens "Pacific"?

Thanks,
Steve Compton
Greenville,SC


On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Eugene and Nancy Hunn wrote:

> Lyn,
>
> Most if not all Washington birders long ago gave up trying to sort out
> Northwestern versus American Crows. I believe they are one species
> that
> intergrades throughout western Washington, with perhaps the most
> Northwestern-like crows on the north and west shores of the Olympic
> Peninsula, as well as in coastal British Columbia. Observers have
> tended to
> assume that crows north of Bellingham were "Northwestern," but I
> believe
> that is quite an arbitrary judgment, as there is no clear line between
> these
> two types as one moves south and/or southeast, at least not since
> Euroamerican settlement and the extensive clearing of west side
> forests.
>
> As for the low pitched calls, these could well be young birds of the
> year or
> just a contrast that you noted in comparison to crows back east. Such
> contrasts are certainly not definitive evidence of a species
> distinction. A
> rather comprehensive analysis of crow taxonomics was published in 1960
> that
> indicated that crow measurements increased incrementally as one moved
> south
> from Victoria to Portland, with no clear break. Also, genetic and
> laboratory
> analyses at the University of Washington, as I understand it, indicate
> that
> the genetic distance between Vancouver Island crows and Seattle crows
> is
> less than what one would expect if they were in fact good species.
>
> Gene Hunn
> Now in Sonoma, California
> enhunn323 at comcast.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tweeters-bounces at mailman1.u.washington.edu
> [mailto:tweeters-bounces at mailman1.u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of Lyn
> Topinka
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 11:38 AM
> To: tweeters at u.washington.edu
> Subject: [Tweeters] RFI - Northewestern Crow ...
>
>
> hi all ... do we have Northwestern Crow here in the Vancouver,
> Washington and Portland, Oregon area ??? ...
>
> I know nothing about Crows but have been hearing a lower-pitched "caw"
> in the mornings, about half-way between American Crow and Common Raven
> ... so I listened to the calls of the 3 species on AllAboutBirds
> website and what I am hearing is closest in pitch to the Northwestern
> Crow ... my location is urban Vancouver ... we do have Crows nesting
> in the area ... I've always heard a higher-pitched "caw" until just
> recently when this lower pitched has shown up, along with the higher
> pitched "caws" ... I know it is not the Raven ... just wondering if
> the Northwestern is seen this far south ...
>
> Lyn
>
>
>
>
> Lyn Topinka
> http://EnglishRiverWebsite.com
> http://ColumbiaRiverImages.com
> http://RidgefieldBirds.com
>
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