Frankly, I am rather tired of the political garbage, and would much
prefer that this stop. There are plenty of other forums for this, I
subscribe to this to learn about the tweeting that birds do.

Quoting Cindy Ashy <tunicate89 at yahoo.com>:

> While I realize this is going to be an unpopular statement with
> some, I truly believe Discover Passes and anything akin to them are
> moving in the wrong direction... there is so much waste/fraud/bogus
> bureaucracy in government spending right now, this is the reason we
> no longer seem to have money for parks from public funds which is
> how I personally think they should be funded... i.e. hugely
> over-inflated contracts being handed out to family/friends/corrupt
> networks for example, favors for various political contributors,
> layers of red tape/paperwork/legal fees/etc that doesn't need to be
> there, etc, etc... If we could fix this, or even improve upon it,
> there would be plenty of public money for parks.
>
> I personally believe there ought to be public spaces, beautiful
> places, ocean beaches, rivers, bays, estuaries, wetlands, forests,
> mountains, deserts, and other wild places where ANYONE can go to
> soak up something natural, refresh their soul, breath clean air,
> clear their mind, listen to native birdsong, etc, without being
> tapped on the shoulder and asked, well actually demanded by law or
> you have to leave, to pay a private fee (not taxes)... it's pubic
> property, not private property, but you are forced to pay a private
> fee usage anyway... I do not agree this is way to go... I think it
> is basic human right that we are losing fast... I would not want to
> live on this planet in a 100 years given where we are currently
> headed and I truly hope it changes somehow without us having to go
> through something devastatingly horrible to wake everyone up to
> realities of what is actually happening in our world currently held
> hostage by monetary greed.
>
> Some people may not see the connection given the topic of this
> thread but Monsanto sits on the board of the Nature Conservancy
> (this one fact alone should be an enormous wake up call) and I-522
> did not pass because corporations bought the election -- quite
> literally bought it. Meanwhile, just over the horizon we'll have GMO
> salmon swimming around in the ocean rubber-stamped by the corporate
> controlled FDA while birds continue to eat the wild rapeseed now
> largely contaminated with GMO genes from canola, not to mention the
> GMO corn being put into the environment for birds by WFW. These
> things are VERY connected to the fact there is supposedly not enough
> money in public coffers for parks because the underlying root
> problem is the exactly the same. The parks funding issue is just a
> symptom of a much larger problem that needs fixing. Can you cure a
> disease by curing a symptom? I personally do not think so... I
> think you cure the disease by rooting out the
> underlying cause(s) and eliminating it.....
>
> Sorry if I'm offending anyone but I really need to speak my peace on
> this... and yes, I think this definitely relates to birds and
> birding, although I understand some will not see it that way.
>
> Cindy Ashy
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 11/14/13, Tom Talbott <tom.talbott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Tweeters] Interesting conversation with a Game Warden
> To: "Hal Michael" <ucd880 at comcast.net>
> Cc: "Tweeters" <tweeters at u.washington.edu>, "Walter Kuciej"
> <WALTERK74 at comcast.net>
> Date: Thursday, November 14, 2013, 7:34 PM
>
> There is no question that
> the "consumptive" users are better targeted and
> have more incentive to pay. It is all in one place (you go
> to buy your tags, passes, licenses at Walmart) and in
> totality they are avoiding being charged with poaching. That
> is a bit more daunting than a parking ticket. Buying a duck
> stamp is required for hunters. For anyone else, it is left
> up to charity.
>
>
> It is all built into the system for hunters.
> ?They aren't being magnanimous for paying these fees,
> they are specifically targeted and for good
> reason.
> The misconception is that there are
> "non-consumptive" users. ?Everyone makes an
> impact and the original post points that out. ?But the
> system doesn't recognize it. So, instead, we resort to
> trying to guilt people into paying? That is not a good
> strategy either.
>
>
> The first step was to get people to start
> thinking in terms of paying for use. Before the Discover
> Pass, many places were free to use. ?Convincing people that
> the money is actually needed is hard given the past, but not
> impossible. It's definitely not going to happen though
> charity, though.
>
>
> The system needs to adapt.
> But for now, since the hunters are forced to pay
> out more money, they pretty much feel like they rule the
> roost and those "non-consumptives" are merely
> tolerated at best.
>
>
> Tom
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013
> at 3:51 PM, Hal Michael <ucd880 at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> It will be
> interesting to see what happens.? The Discover Pass, as i
> understand it, has not generated anywhere near the revenue
> needed to keep the Parks open and maintain them.
>
>
> ?
> The trend in Government is for user fees.? State tax
> money has been really cut back at Parks and WDFW. Without
> the consumptive users and their fees and taxes thereo would
> not be a WDFW, and probably not many F&W agencies in the
> US.? Eliminate the consumptive users/uses and the burden
> will fall to the general public.? Or, the non-consumptive
> users can pay the freight.?
>
>
> ?
> As popular as they are, the national parks are
> underfunded.? I suspect that in a legislative vote to fund
> schools, infrastructure, police/fire, jails, healthcare, or
> natural resources that resources would miss the bus.
>
>
>
>
> Hal Michael
> Olympia WA
> 360-459-4005 (H)
> 360-791-7702 (C)
>
>
> ucd880 at comcast.net
>
>
>
> From: "Tom Talbott" <tom.talbott at gmail.com>
> To: "Hal Michael" <ucd880 at comcast.net>
>
>
> Cc: "Tweeters" <tweeters at u.washington.edu>,
> "Walter Kuciej" <WALTERK74 at comcast.net>
>
>
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:13:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tweeters] Interesting conversation with
> a Game Warden
>
>
> Sounds like they are just perpetuating the
> problem. ?
>
>
> I think times are changing, though, and old ideas need
> to be rethought. Discover Pass is a start. ?The key is that
> it is centralized, easy to get, and well advertised. ?I
> remember having to hunt down all the different ways to buy
> the different passes in the past or getting to a site and
> finding that that pass had just expired.
>
>
>
>
> I believe most people (at least I know am) are willing
> to pay money if the process is up front, easy, and going for
> what they care about.
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013
> at 1:50 PM, Hal Michael <ucd880 at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Conceptually, yes.? In practice, the non-consumptive
> industry shot down proposals for taxes one their goods that
> would be equivalent to the Dingall-Johnson, and Duck Stamp
> programs.
> ?
> The Discover Pass is essentially for State Parks. A
> pittance goes to DNR and WDFW.? How many here used to
> regularly buy the WDFW access pass?
>
>
> Hal Michael
> Olympia WA
> 360-459-4005 (H)
> 360-791-7702 (C)
> ucd880 at comcast.net
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Tom Talbott" <tom.talbott at gmail.com>
> To: "Walter Kuciej" <WALTERK74 at comcast.net>
>
>
> Cc: "Tweeters" <tweeters at u.washington.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:33:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tweeters] Interesting conversation with
> a Game Warden
>
>
>
>
> "I know many birders have
> somewhat negative opinions of hunters, but if it weren't
> for them, we'd have a lot fewer places to
> go.?"
>
>
> I think that part of the problem
> is that the main way to support habitat is to support
> hunting. ?Virtually all preservation exists to make sure
> there will be enough birds to shoot in the
> future.
>
>
>
>
> Hopefully, this will change as
> more people learn that you can be in nature without killing
> things. ?If there were actual passes and stamps targeting
> birding and targeting habitat specifically for birds just
> because they are birds, I believe you would have more people
> contributing. ?When the state sees birders and
> photographers as an asset and isn't predominately geared
> towards hunting, then they will see more uptake in terms of
> revenue from them. ?It will be a balance, but for now the
> scale seems rather tipped.
>
>
>
>
> I think the Discover Pass is
> actually the first step in this direction. ?I know people
> that don't like it, but I find it to be much better than
> the old system.
>
>
>
>
> Tom (renewed Discover Pass just
> came in the mail)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013
> at 1:00 PM, Walter Kuciej <WALTERK74 at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> Yesterday we were leaving
> Eide Rd after dark, and stopped to talk with the friendly
> F+W guy. Learned a few things:
>
>
> Pheasant hunters have to wear orange; duck hunters
> don't.
> The area is stocked 3X weekly with 40-60 birds.
> The end of legal shooting time is adjusted periodically
> based on the length of the day, not necessarily
> "sunset", which is too subjective.
>
>
> Any changes to the Eide Rd. site will take years. Ducks
> Unlimited is the driving force here, not the Audubon society
> or any birding group.
> ?He was surprised at how many $100 citations he gives to
> birders who did not get a Discovery Pass, but feel entitled
> to use the Wildlife areas anyway.
>
>
> He was also amazed at how many "listers" come long
> distances to see a rare bird, and not only don't get a
> pass, but trespass on private property as if they have some
> right to do so, not being hunters.This also happens with
> more casual birders. We saw it on Thomle Rd. when the Snowy
> Owls were there last winter. People just walking across the
> field who said it was "public land", or maybe too
> cheap to buy the $10 permit from the farmer "What
> farmer?" Not everyone reads tweeters.
>
>
> This has resulted in areas being closed to the public by
> normally friendly landowners who would probably give
> permission if asked. He mentioned once having to close a
> public area that was ?being overrun by birders. As always,
> a small group can give a bad name to those who play by the
> rules.
>
>
> If a Discover Pass ($30, think of it as a "birding
> license") and a Federal Duck Stamp ($15, which goes to
> buy land for refuges) seem excessive, ask yourself how much
> you spend on optics, apps, gas etc.
> I know many birders have somewhat negative opinions of
> hunters, but if it weren't for them, we'd have a lot
> fewer places to go.
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>
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